


Dorne

by moonlitgleek



Series: ASOIAF Meta Collection [1]
Category: A Song of Ice and Fire & Related Fandoms, A Song of Ice and Fire - George R. R. Martin
Genre: Archived From Tumblr, Fanwork Research & Reference Guides, Meta Essays, Nonfiction, archived from moonlitgleek blog
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2018-12-12
Updated: 2018-12-12
Packaged: 2019-09-17 04:01:23
Rating: Not Rated
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Chapters: 5
Words: 7,376
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/16967271
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/moonlitgleek/pseuds/moonlitgleek





	1. She is Dornish Syndrome

Sure. That’s what I like to call the [She is Dornish Syndrome](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/tagged/she%20is%20dornish%20syndrome). Basically, the fact that Elia is Dornish and that the Dornish have paramours has been twisted into a belief that the Dornish culture as a whole is permissive of adultery, or even a more extreme view that [marriage just wasn’t that necessary in Dorne](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/164347611320/solareclairart-reblogged-this-post-and-added-i). The theory is that Elia shared Rhaegar’s belief in the prophecy and in the necessity of a third child, and that her culture meant that she was okay with paramours and/or bastards.

I find that to be dismissive of relatively recent Westerosi history that saw a Targaryen bastard use anti-Dornish sentiment to try and supplant his trueborn brother and his half-Dornish heirs, a conflict that lasted generations and only ended in Elia’s lifetime (hitting fairly close to Dorne on the Stepstones, which is probably [the reason the Unnamed Princess of Dorne was appointed as one of then-Princess Rhaella’s ladies](http://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/105267540546/ladies-in-waiting-in-westeros-the). Prince Lewyn Martell almost certainly took part in the fighting as well). The Blackfyre rebellions left their mark on all of Westeros and engendered a deep fear of bastards that is still present in current time, as [Catelyn Stark showed with Jon Snow](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/166539578445/could-a-targaryen-prince-or-king-ever-legitimatize). In light of that, I don’t see how it makes any sense [for Elia to accept such a risk to her children or to her own position in court](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/166053604665/riana-one-replied-to-your-post-riana-one) (as Queen Naerys faced in the era of the Unworthy’s mistresses, from Aegon wanting to crown his mistress in a tourney in a blatant insult to Naerys (sounds suspiciously familiar, doesn’t it) to Barbra Bracken openly speaking of taking Naerys’ place after the latter died. Oh and would you look at that, Elia’s health was delicate just as Naerys’ had been!)

Too, that theory is built on a bastardization of the information we have about Dornish culture because while Dorne does permit for people to have a relationship without marrying and is more tolerant to bastards, [allowing a relationship that’s not marriage is not the same as allowing adultery](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/166052827535/lyannas-replied-to-your-post-riana-one). Monogamy isn’t confined to the bonds of marriage, but saying that people having a relationship without being married makes them more accepting of adultery implies that monogamy _is_ only practiced in marriage. To no one’s surprise, all the examples of Dornish paramours that we’ve seen in the text are not adulterous. Oberyn and Ellaria. Arianna and Daemon. Lewyn and his unknown paramour. Probably Ryon Allyrion and Daemon’s mother. While I’m sure that adulterous Dornish nobles do exist, that’s still not a reflection on the entire culture. Other kingdoms have lots of nobles cheating on their wives and fathering bastards to the point where noble ladies are taught to accept it on the basis of men having needs, but I don’t see someone saying that Reachmen are fine with adultery or that Stormlanders don’t care about bastards. It just happens that it’s the prominent POC culture that receives the label of not particularly caring about monogamy, or that is treated as a monolith based on one single person. Because more often than not, it’s Oberyn’s example of (what fandom has decided to call) an open relationship with Ellaria that is used to stereotype the entire Dornish culture, as if Oberyn is the representative of all Donrishmen. And that’s without even getting into the argument that the occasional threesome Oberyn and Ellaria had does not mean an open relationship, or the fact that Oberyn’s life choices are not in any way indicative of Elia’s, not just as a separate voice from Oberyn’s that is not beholden to his worldview or choices, but as someone who occupies a completely different political office as the crown princess and future queen, as opposed to second son Oberyn.

However, I’ve talked before about how I lay part of the blame for that at GRRM’s feet. For one, he heavily uses the exotic-erotic trope in Dorne and hypersexualizes the Dornish characters to an unusual extent compared to other characters. The way the Dornish characters are handled in the text is a huge problem and Martin really does them dirty. Throughout three books, the only knowledge we had of Dorne is a series of stereotypes and a supposedly “funny” song (The Dornishman’s Wife) that emphasizes two things: that the Dornish have hot tempers, and that they are sexually promiscuous and prone to adultery. Dornish women are generally regarded as wanton which we hear repeatedly before Martin thinks to give any of them a voice. It takes him till half-way through book 3 to introduce a Dornish character; when he does, it’s Tyrion who is the PoV meaning that our view of Oberyn is filtered through his eyes, and Tyrion is clearly affected by the casual racism that permeates Westeros. Martin proceeds to double-down on the hypersexualization of the Dornish when, in a very few interactions between Tyrion and Oberyn, the latter brings up sex constantly, first asking for a brothel, then talking about taking Cersei to his and Ellaria’s bed, and finally calling his longtime girlfriend “a lusty wench”.

Martin then repeats his offense with Arianne Martell who we first meet through the eyes of the incredibly racist Arys Oakheart who gifts us with his insightful assessment “remember, she is Dornish”, which isn’t made better by how our first introduction to Arianne is in a sexual situation. Even when we _finally_ get a Dornish PoV (four books in), Arianne is still sexualized in her own chapters. We get to hear about a sexual experience she had with Drey and Tyene at the age of ten that did not go further simply because Drey got overexcited (all while Martin informs us that Arianne thinks of Tyene as her sister to just add that pesky incestuous element, topped by Arianne’s later fantasies about Oberyn). Martin does the same thing with Lady Nym who was abed with the Fowler twins when the news about Oberyn’s death arrived, again adding a completely unnecessary incestuous element to his already unnecessary sexualization. Even 14-year-old Elia Sand is sexualized.

Keep in mind that I don’t mean to absolve fandom in any way because we do know this is not, in fact, reflective of all Dornish as characters like Doran, Quentyn, Queen Mariah, Dyanna Dayne and many others prove. The choice to ignore them in favor of perpetuating a racist stereotype is on those who choose to promote it. But Martin is certainly culpable in fandom behavior towards Elia and towards the Dornish as a whole by using racist tropes that enforces harmful stereotypes without any effort at deconstructing it.

Which brings me to another thing Martin is responsible for in regards to Elia: that her entire characterization in the text is one line about how witty and gracious she is. In depriving Elia of her interiority and voice, Martin has left her as a nearly blank slate for fandom to project their ideas on. Those who want to absolve Rhaegar or to mitigate the unsavory elements of his relationship with Lyanna have the space to make her to be a part of Rhaegar’s plans to elevate the criticism of Rhaegar humiliating and abandoning her. Sometimes it’s even people who like Elia who adopt the same theory because they just want Elia to have some autonomy in her story. In making Elia a Dead Lady who exists to give birth, suffer, and advance the plot of male characters, Martin left Elia open to being mistreated by fandom as well as the text, which fandom naturally took to the next level. He left her open to having the reader’s choice of motivation, beliefs and character thrust on her and treated as a fact. Which is where the bizarre conviction that Elia believed in the prophecy and thus blessed Rhaegar’s actions comes from as well, even though that still dismisses politics (the Blackfyres), recent history (Summerhall), and additionally assumes that Rhaegar’s power of conviction is so mighty that Elia must have shared his beliefs.

Speaking of, I always have a reaction when someone assumes Elia (or Lyanna) must have believed in the prophecy simply because Rhaegar did. In the absence of supporting evidence, this often implies that these two women were just beholden to Rhaegar’s ideas. As if they were incapable of having another opinion. As if they had to follow Rhaegar’s convictions. I’ve written before about [how unlikely I find it that Lyanna believed in the prophecy](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/168439271430/what-do-you-think-lyannas-stance-on-the-whole), and most of it applies to Elia as well. I’d just add that Elia was really close to Oberyn so if she did believe the prophecy, we’d have gotten a hint that she talked of it to him, if even only to calm her famously hot-headed brother after the mess at Harrenhal. At the very least she would have taken part in securing proper holdings for Lyanna in Dorne with adequate medical care, instead of the remote tower that Lyanna had to give birth in (something that possibly contributed to her death).

But as with Lyanna, I still don’t think that even Elia’s presumed belief in the prophecy could be used to pardon Rhaegar. Rhaegar’s actions don’t cease to have consequences if Elia believes in the prophecy. His accountability and complicity in instigating the rebellion do not get erased if Elia believes in the prophecy. His needless public scorning of Elia at Harrenhal is not made better if Elia believes in the prophecy.[ His terrible oversight in leaving Elia and his children vulnerable to his father’s whims and his willful neglect to ensure their safety](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/178453002875/isnt-it-also-ridiculous-to-blame-rhaegar-for) is not justified if Elia believes in the prophecy. Rhaegar had a responsibility to Elia and her children, and he squandered it. He should have known better. He should have done better.


	2. race and culture in the Dornish arc

Another thing about [the claim](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/179322592255/love-dragoneyes-moonlitgleek-ramzesfics) that race and culture are treated separately by fandom when it comes to the Dornish arc. 

We base our opinions on what the narrative tells and not only has the narrative itself established the interlocking of the two things, it must be observed that their difference in both culture and ethnic makeup from the rest of Westeros comes from the Rhyonar, a non-white foreign population that landed in Dorne and intermarried with the Dornish population bringing certain customs and mores with them. It’s been thoroughly established that Westeros reacts with extreme prejudice to both non-white ethnicities and foreigners, and certainly not simply because of difference in culture. So with a population already primed for a racially-motivated reaction, it can not be discounted that our entire introduction to Dornish culture in the books _was filtered through a racial lens_. One of the effects of GRRM only introducing a Dornish PoV so late is that we got all our information through characters that are racially prejudiced against the Dornish to varying extents which inherently colors the information presented to us that we base our arguments upon with racial implications. Our view of Dornish culture was literally shaped by what racially-mindful characters tell us about it. We met Oberyn, who is widely used to argue that Dornish culture is permissible of adultery, through Tyrion’s eyes, and Tyrion immediately had racist thoughts re the smell of Dornishmen. Not only was Tyrion not an objective Pov on the Dornish, but we never heard Oberyn’s own thoughts about his own culture or how his sexual practices fit into it. Still, fandom responds to that by making broad generalizations about Dornish culture _and_ Dornish people.

There is a tendency to regress Dornish culture to sex, violence and hot temper in canon (case in point, The Dornishman’s Wife being one of the popular songs in Westeros) which isn’t just prejudice but specifically racially-motivated prejudice since that parallels the same treatment of real PoC cultures in real life (e.g: look at how the West stereotypes and minimizes Asian cultures). Fandom tends to reflect that minimizing treatment in its arguments, hence the stereotyping of the entire Dornish culture by Oberyn’s example. That kind of treatment is reserved to the Dornish. I don’t think that people have been adamant in their insistence that Ned Stark was the representative of the North or Robert Baratheon of the Stormlands. When an attitude only emerges with a culture populated by people of color, that it is absolutely about race.

Furthermore, the issue is wider than that because _GRRM_ employed racist tropes in his writing of Dorne (and other PoC cultures, look at the Dothraki for example). The exotic-erotic trope he uses so heavily with the Dornish is racist because it is usually used with PoC to other and dehumanize them. The hypersexualization reduces them to their sexual practices and uses sex as a mark of their foreignness. This colors both the narrative and fandom’s reaction to it as long as people refuse to be critical of the racist elements there. 

So I guess I just don’t understand how anyone can separate race from a narrative absolutely permeated with racial issues on both doylist and watsonian fronts, and when race and culture are so interlocked in the story. 


	3. on Dorne's sexual permissibility

 

  


 

[@lyannas](https://tmblr.co/mWzjBYV7zrAORzQc-9cGo2g)

replied to your post

[“@riana-one replied to your post “tfw someone hails Rhaegar for...”](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/166051448145/riana-one-replied-to-your-post-tfw-someone)

> i'm actually writing a meta rn about anti-dornish racism and i've made the point that while some dornish do have paramours, the westerosi have the EXACT SAME THING, except they call them "mistresses" and like to pretend that they don't exist

Yep. The only difference is that these women are not typically treated like lesser than dirt in Dorne and their children aren’t best kept out of sight and out of mind like the rest of the Westerosi do. To think that some are fond of claiming that Dorne accepts adultery as a way of life simply because they treat women and bastards as human beings....

I’ll also add that having a paramour does not necessarily mean adultery. A paramour is a lover taken outside the bonds of marriage but not necessarily as a mistress on the side for a married noble. Oberyn was not married, neither was Arianne or Lewyn Martell. They had paramours but they were not cheating so to use the argument that Dorne permits paramour as evidence that they were fine with adultery or that Elia was fine with Rhaegar impregnating Lyanna has no basis. Sexual relationships outside of marriage is acceptable in many countries IRL, but that does not mean that a person would automatically be okay with their partner cheating. That’s silly and minimizing. It restricts faithfulness to marriage and marriage alone, and treats monogamy as a practice for married people only. It’s the same thing in asoiaf. The Dornish _can_ take lovers without marriage, but this is not an automatic cultural allowance of adultery. permissibility 


	4. Cultural difference in Dorne

[@solareclairart](https://tmblr.co/m3Yzyk--6UpxrJSlwvgXG3Q) reblogged [this post ](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/164216263635/so-on-game-of-thrones-when-talking-about-the)and added:

> I disagree strongly with a lot of this criticism. In book dorne, marriage was not a necessity. All the sand snakes are considered true daughters under dorne law.  Targaryans also married multiple wives often. It was northern law that forbade unmarried women and bastard born. I think Rhaegar never abandoned Elia. I think she believed the prophecy as well. I truly believe that he married Lyanna to pacify northern lords. Elia is a daughter of the sun. Lyanna was a winter wolf. Together, they created ice and fire. I believe now it will be Targaryen, Stark, and Lannister. The gold lion standing in as sun, snow for ice, and all three with varying amounts of dragon blood. This is also true of Elia who had weaker Targaryen lineage. I think the prophecy didn’t fulfill before because there wasn’t strong enough dragon blood in Elia. If Joanna Lannister was impregnated with the mad king, all three would have a dragon father and lineage to the first men and children of the forest in the men.

  


 

Oh boy. There is a lot to unpack here. I’m gonna break it down because this is a rather stunning mix of outright incorrect information, some breathtaking stereotyping and racist misconceptions, and wrong theories. No, really, they are wrong. Tyrion is not a Targ.

Let’s take this from the top.

  


 

 

* * *

 

> In book dorne, marriage was not a necessity. All the sand snakes are considered true daughters under dorne law.   

What do you think Dornish law _is_ exactly? Because literally the only difference between Dorne and the rest of Westeros is that Dorne employs absolute primogeniture (and a couple of rights like the right to keep their princely title.) That’s it. Law in Dorne is not at all different from other regions in Westeros, especially when we’re talking about matters of marriage and heirs because that stuff affects _the line of succession_ which is crucial in a feudal society.

The context you’re looking for wrt the treatment of bastards is _cultural_ (and social), not legal. Dorne is very different in the way they treat bastards, that’s true, but they are still not giving them the same legal rights as the trueborn. I have no idea where you got the idea that the Sand Snakes are "considered true daughters under dorne law”. Yeaaah, no. That’s patently not true. The Sand Snakes might have gotten raised akin to trueborn children, but so have Jon Snow, and no one is arguing that _he_ was considered a true son under the law. The Sand Snakes are bastards, hence the _Sand_ part. They are not considered trueborn. They are acknowledged as Oberyn’s daughters and treated with respect as the daughters of a prince of House Martell, and as Dorne generally does not stigmatize bastards, but they do not have the same legal rights as trueborn children: they do not bear their father’s name, they are not considered princesses of House Martell, they do not have the right to inherit, etc. There is _nothing_ in Dornish law that says otherwise, or that gives illegitimate offspring any legal rights.

More importantly, the idea that marriage isn’t a necessity in Dorne is ludicrous. Whatever on earth gave you that impression? No, let me guess: Oberyn Martell. Fandom just loves to take the example of Oberyn and stereotype _the entire Dornish culture_ based on him. Oberyn wasn’t married so no one had to get married in Dorne. Oberyn made a casual comment about sleeping with others while he was in a committed relationship with Ellaria so all the Dornish are accustomed to cheating on their significant others and don’t care if they have paramours on the side (not that Oberyn _was_ cheating. Some are just fond of ignoring the fact that he repeatedly made comments about “sharing” with Ellaria. Ellaria consented. Ellaria _participated_. _They_ invited people to  _their_ bed.) Gee, I wonder why people act as if Oberyn is the representative of the entire Dornish culture, even going to unprecedented measures to ignore the actual text because “well, Oberyn did X” fit their racist stereotypes better. Stop treating a person of color as the sole representative of his culture, and stop treating the only non-white culture that actually has a proper presence in the series as a monolith society.

  


 

(Grumbles at GRRM and his skewered presentation of the Dornish and heavy use of the exotic-erotic trope. You haven’t helped matters any, George. Good lord.)

But let’s talk about Dorne and about Oberyn. Dorne has a positive attitude towards sex, culturally permits having paramours and does not frown upon children born out of wedlock, but that does not mean that [having paramours is the rule of the land in Dorne, or that it’s the baseline convention](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/166052827535/lyannas-replied-to-your-post-riana-one). It’s just allowed without derision or scorn. Dorne is a feudal principality, they adhere to the Faith of the Seven just like the majority of Westeros, they are governed by only slightly different inheritance laws, and the difference has nothing to do with the status of trueborn vs bastard children. Legitimacy is crucial to the integrity of line of succession and to the laws of inheritance, but you just randomly decided that nah, marriage is optional there? Okay, care to explain this:

> **Arianne Martell had grown up expecting that one day she would wed some great lord of her father's choosing. That was what princesses were for, she had been taught** . . . though, admittedly, her uncle Oberyn had taken a different view of matters. "If you would wed, wed," the Red Viper had told his own daughters. "If not, take your pleasure where you find it. There's little enough of it in this world. Choose well, though. If you saddle yourself with a fool or a brute, don't look to me to rid you of him. I gave you the tools to do that for yourself." 

Or how the text disproves the idea that there is absolutely no difference between the Sand Snakes and trueborn Martells, or generally between bastards and trueborn in Dorne.

> **The freedom that Prince Oberyn allowed his bastard daughters had never been shared by Prince Doran's lawful heir**. **Arianne must wed; she had accepted that**. Drey had wanted her, she knew; so had his brother Deziel, the Knight of Lemonwood. **Daemon Sand had gone so far as to ask for her hand. Daemon was bastard-born, however** , and Prince Doran did not mean for her to wed a Dornishman. 

_Oberyn_ took a different approach with his own life and his own daughters. He made a decision concerning his life and he encouraged his daughters to do the same. He gave them the freedom to wed if they wished to but not the expectation that they would. But Oberyn was presented by the text as somewhat of a maverick, a nonconformist even within Dorne itself. He could afford to do that because he was not heir to Dorne and there was little chance that he’d ever inherit. He did not have a responsibility to provide trueborn heirs for House Nymeros Martell, and so he had significant freedom due to that fact. But heirs have a _responsibility_ to marry and produce lawful heirs. Plus, Oberyn is one person, why is his example the one people are laser-focused on but they ignore Doran and Elia, the Unnamed Princess of Dorne and Nymeria of Ny Sar, Mariah and Maron Martell, Arianne, Quentyn and Trystane, and the countless trueborn Dornish characters we met over the course of the story? Why did _all these people_ marry if marriage was not a necessity?

Marriage is as important in Dorne as in the other regions in Westeros with both religious and legal weight. Dorne is just another region in Westeros that is still governed by Westerosi convention, customs and religion, they just have some of their own inspired by the Rhoynish. The social treatment of bastards is infinitely better in Dorne than outside it, but their legal and political standing remains the same, the distinction between bastards and trueborn through surnames remains the same, even some restrictions remain the same. Daemon Sand can be a lover to Arianne but he can never be her husband. His social and political standing would never allow it. Likewise, I suspect the reason Oberyn did not marry Ellaria, his lover of 14 years that he evidently loved very much, was because of her bastard-birth, because even princes can only bend the rules so much. 

Enough with fanon myths that bastardize the information we have about Dorne and turn it into these weird arguments that are always used to justify Rhaegar’s actions. Not that I can see how "marriage was not a necessity in Dorne” explains anything because Elia _was_ Rhaegar’s wife and the mother of his two children, the Iron Throne was her children’s inheritance, or do the Dornish not care about inheritance as well? And if you mean to imply the old “Elia was okay with it because she is Dornish” argument, [fuck that noise](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/tagged/she%20is%20dornish%20syndrome).

> Targaryans also married multiple wives often. 

Yes, that is correct, though often is not the word I’d use for _two_ recorded polygamous marriages. Nevertheless, that means there is a precedent to a Targaryen taking multiple wives, which I think is probably what Rhaegar proposed to Lyanna to get her to go with him willingly (as much as the action can be described as willing because [there are still consent issues at play here](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/164906564875/honestly-the-argument-over-lyannas-consent-could)). I think that Rhaegar and Lyanna probably wed in front of a heart tree on the Isle of Faces. [That, however, does not mean that the marriage is either valid or legal](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/152038960755/i-seem-to-have-fallen-down-the-rabbit-hole-of).

We need to look at the historical context of Targaryen polygamy before we discuss Rhaegar’s ability to take another wife to understand the chances that the realm would accept that marriage. The first thing to note about this subject is that polygamy was unconventional even when Aegon the Conqueror did it, before he started his conquest of Westeros.

> It had long been the custom amongst the dragonlords of Valyria to wed brother to sister, to keep the bloodlines pure, but Aegon took both his sisters to bride. By tradition, he was expected to wed only his older sister, Visenya; the inclusion of Rhaenys as a second wife was unusual, though not without precedent. 

Both polygamy and incest are sins in the eyes of the Faith of the Seven, the majority religion in Westeros. The Faith tolerated both in the case of Aegon on account of his dragons whose prowess was just recently demonstrated in the Conquest. [As GRRM says](http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2997): 

> ... the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.      

Aegon had converted to the Faith of the Seven and taken measures to assimilate to Westerosi culture, winning him the support of the Starry Sept. However, upon Aegon’s death, the Faith showed that they would not tolerate the same practices from his son(s). 

> Maegor shocked the realm in 39 AC by announcing that he had taken a second wife—Alys of House Harroway—in secret. He had wed her in a Valyrian ceremony officiated by Queen Visenya for want of a septon willing to wed them. The public outcry was such that Aenys was finally forced to exile his brother. 

Maegor’s bigamous marriage to Alys Harroway was the start of the rift between the Faith and the crown, one that did not heal despite Aenys’ attempts, and was later compounded by Aenys himself marrying his two eldest to each other, ultimately leading to the Faith denouncing the Targaryens. The Faith Militant uprising during Maegor’s reign followed as his continuing polygamous marriages raised the tension and Maegor escalated the situation (because he is Maegor) by blatant tyranny and brutal burning of thousands of Warrior’s Sons and Poor Fellows.

  


 

So the history tied to Targaryen polygamy is dark and bloody. Maegor was the last recorded Targaryen polygamists, bar some rumors that Daemon Blackfyre meant to take his half-sister Daenerys as a second wife after his planned seizing of the throne from Daeron II, but the truth of the matter died with Daemon himself on the Redgrass field. While Jaehaerys I’s conciliatory efforts succeeded in defanging the Faith after the bloody conflict with Maegor, and won the Targaryens the exemption that permitted them their incestuous marriages, polygamy was never practiced again. Which means that the precedent that Rhaegar may have intended to invoke 1) happened over 200 years ago when the Targaryens had the undeniable advantage of dragons on their side, and 2) sparked a rebellion that resulted in the death of thousands, and thus got heavily entwined in the minds of the Westerosi with the tyranny of Maegor. Which utterly complicates any attempt to get a marriage to Lyanna recognized.

Now, we can argue that Rhaegar planned to convince, pressure and\or bribe the High Septon to declare a second marriage valid (though we have no evidence to suggest so, and though getting the High Septon to approve a post-fact marriage done in front of a heart tree would be extremely unlikely indeed), but in the absence of such a legalization, Rhaegar and Lyanna’s “marriage” would remain illegal and invalid in the eyes of the Faith. And no, that crap on the show where the High Septon was able to Apparate to Dorne and back before anyone noticed his absence, and where he approved something that would bring significant consequences to both himself and the realm so damn easily, is not happening. That’s preposterous.

> It was northern law that forbade unmarried women and bastard born. 

  


 

You seem to think that the cultural divide that separates the North and Dorne from the rest of the realm means that the North and Dorne are governed by alien laws that are completely removed from the rest of Westeros when the truth is that the differences are not that grand or that many, and most of them are cultural with no legal bearing.

Anyways.

This is not something that is unique to the North. Bastards are stigmatized _everywhere_ in Westeros, with the exception of Dorne; [they are perceived as treacherous and untrustworthy](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=no+bastard+can+be+trusted+not+even+him&scope%5B%5D=tmk) and a perpetual [danger to their trueborn siblings’ inheritance](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=He+would+father+no+sons+who+might+someday+contest+with+Catelyn%27s+own+grandchildren&scope%5B%5D=agot&povs%5B%5D=Catelyn), [the girls are assumed to be lusty and wanton and easy](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=wench+as+lusty+as+bastard). This ain’t a mark of those “Northern savages”, literally every region in Westeros, bar Dorne, thinks that way. The patriarchy, naturally, absolves the men, chalking it up to them “having needs” while literally teaching women to expect their husbands to father bastards. However, a noblewoman who loses her maidenhead before marriage or, god forbid, bears a bastard is swiftly punished, looked down upon and often has to marry so far beneath her station because the scandal of bearing a bastard tanked her hand’s worth. Delena Florent had to marry a household knight after bearing a bastard son to Robert Baratheon. Lollys Stokeworth fell pregnant after being gang-raped but in a rather remarkable pout of victim-blaming, _she_ was derided for it, and was married off to the lowborn sellsword Bronn. Hoster Tully forcibly aborted Lysa to prevent the news about her lost maidenhead and her pregnancy from getting out. Jon Arryn’s niece, the daughter of Alys Arryn and Elys Waynwood, joined the Silent Sisters after she was seduced by a sellsword and her bastard died in infancy. None of these women are Northern.

As for bastards, the prevailing social convention for them is to be sent away, if they are even acknowledged in first place. Jon Snow and the Sand Snakes are the exception, not the rule. This is a story where Mya Stone, _the king’s_ bastard, spends her time guiding mules in the Vale in service to House Royce of the Gates of the Moon. Her half-brother Edric Storm had a much better fate being raised as a ward of Renly in Storm’s End but that’s because his mother is a noblewoman (the aforementioned Delena Florent) and because his conception was a public affair since Robert deflowered Delena in Stannis’ marriage bed. Falia Flowers, bastard daughter of Lord Humfrey Hewett of Oakenshield, was made a servant to her half-sisters and her father’s wife. Even when the bastards are relatively treated well or belong to Great Houses, we still see the prevailing social stigma in how Sybelle Spicer, herself derided for descending from upjumped merchants as she is the granddaughter of a spice trader and an Essosi maegi, was thoroughly disgusted at the idea of marrying her son to Joy Hill, bastard daughter of Gerion Lannister. And these are all noble bastards, claimed or at least acknowledged by their noble parent. 

The prejudice against bastards is _institutional_ in Westeros, supported by holy scripture and widely spread. The nobility frowns upon bastards and regards them with suspicion, and the Faith preaches about their ill-make. Here’s what the Faith of the Seven, the majority religion in Westeros, says about bastardy and even legitimized bastards as told by the would-be King Aegon V Targaryen:

> **"The old High Septon told my father that king's laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another,"** [Egg] said stubbornly. " **Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother,** **but bastards are born of lust and weakness,** he said. **King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature**. **The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal**. . . Daemon Blackfyre, Bittersteel, even Bloodraven. Lord Rivers was more cunning than the other two, he said, but in the end he would prove himself a traitor, too. **The High Septon counseled my father never to put any trust in him, nor in any other bastards, great or small."**

Tell me again how it’s Northern law that bans bastards.

> I think Rhaegar never abandoned Elia. I think she believed the prophecy as well. 

  


 

Rhaegar left Elia in her sickbed, shortly after she nearly died birthing Aegon, to go pursue Lyanna, and that’s after [publicly humiliating her and dealing a hit to her political worth in the eyes of the biggest possible gathering of lords](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/156413959615/dorne-would-never-be-okay-with-rhaegars-actions). I don’t think he considered that Aerys could recall her and the children to King’s Landing but that’s, at best, a terrible oversight on his part since he knew fully well that his father was paranoid and fearful of what he, Rhaegar, might do. Rhaegar drew Aerys’ eyes to the Starks at Harrenhal then went and caused a political crisis by disappearing with Lyanna. It was a given that Aerys would be quick to seek an insurance against his wayward son who disappeared to who-knows-where doing who-knows-what and conveniently left his wife and children behind on Dragonstone within the Mad King’s reach, the same Mad King who already disdained Elia and her “Dornish-smelling” daughter, and regarded Dorne with suspicion for the heck of it. Perfect plan. Two thumbs up, Rhaegar.

I continue to be bewildered as to where the belief that Elia believed in the prophecy comes from. She knew of the prophecy but we have no indication that she believed it or was willing to risk  _her own children_  for it. Why on earth would she do that? What shred of evidence do we have to suggest this? I mean, if Elia really did believe the prophecy, shouldn’t Oberyn have at least heard about it? Oberyn and Elia were as close as twins and she trusted him implicitly. He was present at Harrenhal and bristled at the public insult to his sister. He was still (rightfully) bristling at Rhaegar 15 years later. But if Elia knew, wouldn’t she have tried to convince Oberyn of the validity of the prophecy, or at the very least indicated that she was alright with what Rhaegar had done? Wouldn’t she cite the prophecy to convince her brother to let it go? Wouldn’t she have tried to use her connections to find Rhaegar a more appropriate place for Lyanna than the Tower of Joy, considering this was her own kingdom he was taking Lyanna to? Wouldn’t she, at the very least, know fully well that Aegon was the Prince who was Promised and thus needn’t ask Rhaegar for a song for him?

I hate that argument, that unfounded assumption that of course Elia believed in the prophecy just because Rhaegar did. People generally do not buy into legends about a zombie apocalypse and prophetic figures and dragons returning that easily, especially since  _the entire Targaryen dynasty was nearly wiped out chasing that dream_. No one was going to put stock in long lost lore and prophetic dreams and obscure scrolls after that, not without compelling evidence. Why would Elia be okay with being publicly humiliated and put, along with her children, on the line for a prophecy? Why would she be cool with Rhaegar carrying off a teenager to use as an incubator for a savior? Why does that argument even exists? ffs.

>  I truly believe that he married Lyanna to pacify northern lords. 

This has got to be a joke! Please tell me this is a joke!

Dude, Rhaegar vanished with Lyanna _for months_. He made a mess and left the Starks to deal with the fallout, left them with no choice but to go to Aerys, then returned after Aerys killed over half a dozen nobles, including the Lord Paramount of the North and his heir, only to take up arms against Northern lords. How did you arrive at “pacify the Northern lords” from that? The guy carried off a daughter of House Stark to the other side of the continent to impregnate her. He defied convention and every chivalric rule and publicly besmirched her honor and that of House Stark by pretty much framing her as a royal mistress at Harrnehal. He created a political crisis and fled without sparing two thoughts to the consequences. He declared for his father and took up arms against the rebels knowing fully well that his father committed a crime, and being more than willing to kill the people who were injured by his and his father’s actions so he could retain his crown. What part of that even hints at an attempt for conciliation?

> I believe now it will be Targaryen, Stark, and Lannister. The gold lion standing in as sun, snow for ice, and all three with varying amounts of dragon blood. This is also true of Elia who had weaker Targaryen lineage. I think the prophecy didn’t fulfill before because there wasn’t strong enough dragon blood in Elia. If Joanna Lannister was impregnated with the mad king, all three would have a dragon father and lineage to the first men and children of the forest in the men. 

  


 

[Tyrion is not a secret Targaryen](http://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/158010382161/do-you-believe-theres-any-validity-to-the-idea-of). [Tyrion is not a secret Targaryen](http://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/151901546151/i-know-grrm-is-far-from-perfect-but-the-tyrion). [TYRION IS NOT A SECRET TARGARYEN](http://joannalannister.tumblr.com/tagged/a-plus-j-does-not-equal-t). [GRRM himself said that third head of the dragon needn’t have Targaryen blood](http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1261/). Kill that theory with wildfire and throw the ashes from the Hightower. The narrative is not going to make Tywin Lannister correct in his rejection of Tyrion as his son, neither is it validating his ableism and abuse or handing him his heart’s desire posthumously. Tywin wanted nothing more than for Tyrion to not be his blood, and the narrative isn’t giving it to him. The point of the story is that Tyrion _is_ Tywin’s son and how he has to struggle to define who _he_ is outside of his father’s brutal legacy, how he has to reject the Lannister ideology and legacy of blood and revenge to turn his attention to the true fight in the North. Tyrion being a Targaryen undermines his story, just as Jon being legitimate undermines his.

And enough with the stuff about Elia. She didn’t have enough Targaryen blood! She couldn’t have a third child for the prophecy! The only thing I see in these arguments is an insistence to imply that Elia was somehow lacking and that it was her that prevented the fulfillment of the prophecy. What a load of crap. You do realize that you’re buying into Cersei’s and Jon Connington’s rhetoric about Elia, correct? That you’re adopting their ableist and racist view of her and treating it as a fact, building a theory on the implication that Elia simply was not enough. Don’t be Cersei, don’t be Jon Connington. Be better.

It does not matter how “strong” Elia’s Targaryen blood was or wasn’t, the prophecy wasn’t going to come true with her children anyway..... because Rhaegar got it wrong. That’s the whole point; Rhaegar understood everything about this prophecy wrong. Aegon was not the Prince who was Promised. Rhaenys wasn’t one of the heads of the dragons. The three heads of the dragon aren’t even siblings, and not all of them are Targaryens. This has nothing with the potency of Elia’s Targaryen blood (and fyi, not even the current Targaryens have that much Valyrian blood anyway). The fact of the matter is that Aegon and Rhaenys couldn’t fulfill the prophecy no more than Rhaegar or Viserys could, simply because they weren’t the figures described in it. It had nothing to do with how much Targaryen blood they had, or how strong it was. I mean, Rhaegar and Viserys had as much Targ blood as Dany, why weren’t  _they_  two of the heads of the dragon?

Oh, and just for the record, Rhaenys and Aegon did have First Men blood, through Betha Blackwood _and_ Dyanna Dayne , Rhaegar’s great grandmother, and great great grandmother respectively. That magical genetic makeup of Targaryen\First Men blood you’re talking about? Yup, they had it too. They also had _more_ Targaryen blood than Jon.  


	5. on Elia's dynastic marriage

 

 

  


 

[@riana-one](https://tmblr.co/mU0nX9A4qof38GsDUo8P7Yw)

replied to your post

[“@riana-one replied to your post “tfw someone hails Rhaegar for...”](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/166051448145/riana-one-replied-to-your-post-tfw-someone)

 

> But they ignore all actual history like a high born bastard never threatened a Dornish queen and her half Dornish son. Or caused a series of conflicts that plagued Westeros for multiple generations and were only ended in recent memory. Or even if Elia didn't love Rhaegar she would totes be okay with being publicly humiliated on a national stage so her husband can fuck the fourteen year old.

Exactly! Even if we discard the personal elements, the argument that Elia was on board with Rhaegar’s plans do not make sense politically or dynastically. I’m gonna be pompous here and [quote myself](http://moonlitgleek.tumblr.com/post/156413959615/dorne-would-never-be-okay-with-rhaegars-actions):

Elia’s marriage was dynastic - one that was directly connected to previous Targaryen\Martell unions that were, in no small part, the incentive that garnered support for Daemon Blackfyre and started the Blackfyre rebellions. Like, come on guys, history matters, and GRRM didn’t give us the info on the Blackfyres or keep bringing them up in the main novels for nothing. We can not speak of a Targaryen\Martell dynastic marriage without keeping in mind the Blackfyre rebellions since the support Daemon Blackfyre garnered was explicitly **anti-Dornish**. The lords supporting Daemon were against everything Dornish, from Daeron II’s concessions to bring Dorne into the fold of the Seven Kingdoms to his Dornish Queen to the increased Dornish influence in court, to the looks of the half-Martell crown prince, Baelor Breakspear. Four other attempts to take the throne followed, plaguing Dornish-blooded monarchs: the half Martell Aerys I and Maekar, Maekar’s son Aegon V (whose mother is also Dornish, Dyanna Dayne of Starfall), and Aegon’s son Jaeherys II.

This certainly wouldn’t escape either Doran’s or Elia’s notice, especially since Doran was 12 or 13 at the time of the War of the Ninepenny Kings and already being groomed for ruling. Recent history shows the threat an acknowledged, noble-mothered Targaryen bastard raised in court can pose to a Dornish-friendly, and later to Dornish-blooded, monarchs. Picking Lyanna in particular increases the risk since the Starks come with ties to the Tullys and the Arryns which means that Lyanna and whatever kids she ends up having would have a pretty powerful bloc in their corner. That’s too much of a risk for Elia to approve of. With the Starks, Tullys and Arryns at his back, a son of Lyanna’s could trouble Aegon or try to supplant him, and Lyanna herself could easily replace Elia. Why would Elia be okay with that risk? For the prophecy? She did know about the prophecy but that doesn’t necessarily mean that she believed it or was invested in fulfilling it like Rhaegar. [..]

Any conversation about Rhaegar’s actions and Elia’s position wrt them can not discount or dismiss the public humiliation he forces on her for no reason whatsoever, or what that implies about her political position. Starting from Harrenhal, passing Elia for Lyanna means that Rhaegar is sending a very public message that Elia is lacking in his eyes and validates the racism and ableism of every douchebag who thought her unworthy of the crown prince or less of a woman because of the color of her skin or her delicate health. Which really hurts her place in his future court. Because Elia isn’t just a princess of Dorne, she is the crown princess and the future queen of the Seven Kingdoms, and what Rhaegar does compounds the insult his father dealt her at Rhaenys’ birth by first demeaning her in front of the biggest possible gathering of lords at Harrenhal, then leaving her while vulnerable and sick to his father’s whims. Rhaegar really damages Elia’s political image by his actions and sends a message about what her importance and worth in his court would be.


End file.
